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matociquala and I start off talking about Spin State, because I just finished reading it and she wanted to talk to me about it, and Spin, because I'd just finished reading it and I wanted to talk about it.
Talking about Spin won. But like all good conversations, it wanders, topically, into why we wanna write depressing books about "the world ending" because we're too stupid to clean up after ourselves (otherwise known as what we call eco-gothic.)
it's long and loopy like chat conversations are, but it could prove interesting for the tenacious. we DO go on.
There is a spoiler for Spin state right off the hop. if you want to avoid it, hit the second cut. the spoilers for Hammered, Scardown, worldwired, Carnival, Spin and Dawn: Xenogenesis are unavoidable, and I apologize.
[19:24]cpolk: what was the twist in Spin State?
[19:25]cpolk: I looked and looked but I didn't figure out what it was.
[19:25]matociquala: the living planet.
[19:25]matociquala: that was supposed to be a surprise
[19:26]cpolk: oh.
[19:26]cpolk: but of course the planet was alive.
[19:26]cpolk: okay.
[19:26]matociquala: heh
[19:27]cpolk: I kept thinking to myself that Chris re-read The Crystal Singer at one point, yelled, "This is rubbish! It wouldn't BE like that! It would be like THIS!"
[19:27]cpolk: and wrote up her worldbuilding with a full head of mad on. An offended sort of 'you wouldn't know a miner's life if it bit you on the ass, you dummy' kind of thing.
[19:27]cpolk: annnd...
[19:28]cpolk: the thing with Cohen pissed me off.
[19:28]matociquala: yeh, prolly
[19:28]matociquala: oh, the resurrection?
[19:28]matociquala: I can't... well, have you read Carnival yet?
[19:28]cpolk: at first I was mad because it was "oh sure, she finally decides to give love an chance and then you kill him"
[19:29]cpolk: (I don't think you ever gave me the finished product. I got to what I figure was more than two thirds but less than three quarters of the way.)
[19:30]matociquala: Then I will not continue the comment.
[19:30]matociquala: want the novel?
[19:30]cpolk: and then she brings him back to life with no more than a "sorry I'm late, luv, I'm here to take your bigass legal battle over my will away because I'm not dead."
[19:30]cpolk: yes give it.
[19:31]matociquala: SFF is fucking desperate.
[19:32]matociquala: Okay, in 2005 we got, oh, two amazing books.
[19:32]cpolk: and I like Richard better than Cohen.
[19:32]matociquala: Richard is a step out from existing AIs.
[19:32]cpolk: that's also true.
[19:32]matociquala: with the threaded personality gimmick.
[19:32]matociquala: We got Accelerando and we got Spin.
[19:33]cpolk: I did like the highly experimental interface thingy in spin state.
[19:33]matociquala: In 2006 we're getting Blindsight.
[19:33]cpolk: ah, Blindsight.
[19:33]cpolk: I wanna read that too.
[19:33]matociquala: And I hear tell Vernor's new book is a work of fucking genius.
[19:33]cpolk: sorry, intraface.
[19:33]cpolk: ooo
[19:33]matociquala: Yeah, intraface.
[19:34]cpolk: but I think that in my hands, I would use it as one of those small details of worldbuilding.
[19:34]matociquala: At least, Ken MacLeod, Charlie Stross, and the rest of the geek boys are all atwitter over Rainbow's End
[19:34]matociquala: Well, that's what I did with the same idea.
[19:35]matociquala: I dunno. I am getting a lot of retractions after Worldwired, by the way
[19:35]cpolk: that many independent AIs have an Avatar - somebody that they can connect with
[19:35]matociquala: People who thought Scardown didn't work are taking it back.
[19:35]cpolk: retractions?
[19:35]matociquala: *g*
[19:35]cpolk: you mean, "I thought this was bunk but now I've read Worldwired and I take it back, I am so lame"?
[19:35]matociquala: s'funny, because I think Scardown is the best of the lot.
[19:36]cpolk: Scardown made me cry
[19:36]cpolk: on a bench by a bus stop
[19:36]cpolk: in public.
[19:36]cpolk: so there!
[19:36]matociquala: Hee
[19:36]matociquala: I think boys find it disconcerting.
[19:37]matociquala: Because the deep message of Scardown is:
[19:37]matociquala: "You lost. Suck it up."
[19:37]cpolk: huh.
[19:37]matociquala: "Get up and feed the baby, you fucking sissy."
[19:37]matociquala: "It doesn't matter that you have the flu and you feel like death."
[19:37]matociquala: "The kid has to be fed."
[19:38]cpolk: there's still shit to do now go do it. Don't Wallow. It's un-sexy.
[19:38]matociquala: It's a girl book.
[19:38]cpolk: and I had a stray distressing thought, after reading spin.
[19:38]matociquala: Women suck it up.
[19:38]matociquala: Women slop the fucking pigs.
[19:38]matociquala: Because the pigs need slopping.
[19:38]cpolk: and they're getting the idea that girls are tougher than guys because
[19:38]cpolk: they go on.
[19:38]matociquala: Men lick their wounds.
[19:38]matociquala: Yes.
[19:38]cpolk: guys crack up and have drinking problems and run off to Tahiti.
[19:38]matociquala: What was the thought?
[19:39]cpolk: women bake casseroles and get on with it.
[19:39]cpolk: the thought was this: there's another message going on here.
[19:39]matociquala: we pick ourselves up and get it done.
[19:39]matociquala: Yes!
[19:39]matociquala: hat was exactly what I got.
[19:39]matociquala: Spin is a giant diversion.
[19:39]cpolk: the spin was disturbing and mysterious, right?
[19:40]matociquala: A giant, gorgeous, elaborate diversion from the real book.
[19:40]matociquala: Bob is a fucking genius.
[19:40]cpolk: and my little brain said, "But this is all a big giant alien ex machina stunt to save humankind...
[19:40]matociquala: keep talking
[19:40]matociquala: Hee yes
[19:40]cpolk: because it's gone so fucking far we can't do it on our own."
[19:40]cpolk: we need aliens to save us from this shit.
[19:41]matociquala: Did you catch the scary thing about Spin?
[19:41]matociquala: Yeah, okay
[19:41]cpolk: and that scared me down to my bowels.
[19:41]matociquala: for me, the thing about the book that was gorgeous
[19:41]matociquala: was the fucking gauntlet thrown.
[19:41]cpolk: explain
[19:41]matociquala: Because what happens is Bob sets up this huge DE, right?
[19:41]matociquala: And you go "No, wait, why?"
[19:42]matociquala: "What's their motivation?"
[19:42]cpolk: yes.
[19:42]matociquala: And you have to do one of two things.
[19:42]cpolk: I thought about it and stopped at
[19:42]cpolk: because they're smarter wiser kinder more enlightened than us
[19:42]cpolk: or
[19:42]cpolk: we have something that's useful enough to preserve.
[19:42]matociquala: You either have to go, okay, we're too stupid to save ourselves and we're the dodos they're saving from extinction
[19:42]matociquala: or.
[19:43]matociquala: You have to stop and go,
[19:43]matociquala: oh.
[19:43]matociquala: Right.
[19:43]matociquala: Nobody is coming for me.
[19:43]cpolk: yes.
[19:43]cpolk: that's why it scared me so bad.
[19:43]cpolk: because nobody is coming for us.
[19:43]matociquala: it's get out of this ourselves, or extinction in the eye.
[19:43]matociquala: Yes.
[19:43]cpolk: we're not going to get a spin membrane.
[19:43]matociquala: Because he sets up this whole gorgeous in loco parentis.
[19:43]cpolk: aliens are not going to save us from this shit.
[19:44]cpolk: because what they do?
[19:44]matociquala: And of course the subtext is you're not man enough to do it yourself
[19:44]matociquala: You need somebody to wipe your ass, monkeyboy?
[19:44]cpolk: you remember I said, "Why terraform mars? That's not what I'd call a good solution."
[19:44]cpolk: and then they Spun that too
[19:44]matociquala: Or CAN YOU LEARN?
[19:44]matociquala: Yes.
[19:45]matociquala: It's a brilliant book.
[19:45]cpolk: because they (we) were too fucking stupid to figure it out.
[19:45]matociquala: Yes.
[19:45]cpolk: running to Mars isn't good enough.
[19:45]cpolk: it's not about short term solutions for high profit.
[19:45]matociquala: And it's all echoed in the protag's mom's relationships
[19:45]cpolk: you've got nothing to lose but the destruction of the species, you greedy fucks.
[19:45]matociquala: and in the protag's hopeless love affair
[19:46]cpolk: go. DO something real.
[19:46]matociquala: and I mean it just resonates through the whole damned book.
[19:46]matociquala: Fix it yourself, monkeyboy.
[19:46]matociquala: Running away won't solve anything.
[19:46]cpolk: it's definitely a book to re-read.
[19:46]cpolk: no one is coming to help you.
[19:46]cpolk: *laughs*
[19:46]matociquala: You are on your own.
[19:46]cpolk: the Rapture ain't coming.
[19:47]cpolk: fuck. I was smart when I came up with that, wasn't I?
[19:47]matociquala: Contrast, say, Butler's Dawn.
[19:47]matociquala: Yes
[19:47]matociquala: Where the aliens come to save us[19:47] cpolk: and it's creepy as fuck?
[19:47]cpolk: I haven't read Dawn.
[19:47]matociquala: and they do it by picking a few specimens to breed, and genetic engineering them until they aren't human any more.
[19:47]cpolk: but I read Sheri S. Tepper's The Fresco
[19:47]cpolk: and I was deeply disturbed by it.
[19:47]matociquala: Or, yanno, at the risk of talking about me--
[19:48]cpolk: heh.
[19:48]matociquala: My Carnival, where the ecofreaks save the world.
[19:48]matociquala: By killing everybody.
[19:48]matociquala: You should read the Xenogenesis books.
[19:48]matociquala: They pull off that same trick that Spin does.
[19:49]cpolk: I like it.
[19:49]cpolk: and you know what?
[19:49]matociquala: The one where the postulate of the books is chilling.
[19:49]matociquala: And you go, no no no
[19:49]cpolk: I just figured out why I yawn at Singularity.
[19:49]matociquala: and then you can't justify your denial.
[19:49]matociquala: denial, even
[19:49]matociquala: oh?
[19:49]cpolk: it's a big running away.
[19:49]cpolk: it's another rapture.
[19:49]cpolk: but the rapture ain't fucking coming.
[19:49]matociquala: yes.
[19:50]matociquala: Nobody is coming for you.
[19:50]cpolk: and I can't read it because there isn't a solution there.
[19:50]matociquala: nobody is coming for you.
[19:50]matociquala: he I can't type tonight
[19:50]cpolk: it's fantasizing. It's masturbation.
[19:50]matociquala: yeah, it's Diaspora all over again.
[19:50]matociquala: which is what Spin does.
[19:50]cpolk: and once you're done, that's another fifteen minutes of your life not spent on getting yourself out of this mess.
[19:50]matociquala: It takes that whole Diaspora as escape thing and twists it around like the wyrm ourbourous
[19:51]matociquala: It's not a solution.
[19:51]matociquala: It doesn't change a fucking thing.
[19:51]cpolk: I noticed that spin state had a Diaspora. It was kindly mentioned in an offhand fashion.
[19:51]matociquala: It doesn't change what's wrong with the apes.
[19:51]cpolk: (is this why we're a movement?)
[19:52]matociquala: You can't run from your DNA
[19:52]matociquala: the eco-gothics? *g*
[19:52]matociquala: I think so.
[19:52]cpolk: yes.
[19:52]matociquala: I think Bob Wilson may be the founding father of the trend.
[19:52]matociquala: Although The Word for World is Forest is probably the ur-text.
[19:52]cpolk: and I camp myself firmly with the eco-gothics, because that's where my SFNal ideas lie.
[19:52]matociquala: I mean, I was joking when I coined the term. But there's something there.
[19:53]cpolk: yes.
[19:53]matociquala: I think you should blog this convo.
[19:53]matociquala: So I can link it. *g*
[19:53]cpolk: and it will probably become common usage.
[19:53]matociquala: But please fix my spelling....
[19:53]cpolk: heh, yeah, it's a notion.
[19:53]cpolk: I will fix!
[19:53]matociquala: I dunno, there's been no assimilation of it so far.
[19:53]matociquala: but it's useful to me.
[19:54]matociquala: I mean, what is eco-gothic?
[19:54]matociquala: John Brunner is.
[19:54]matociquala: And Bob Wilson is.
[19:54]matociquala: And I think Peter is, and I am, and you are....
[19:54]matociquala: What do we have in common, though?
[19:56]cpolk: that we look around at the world
[19:56]cpolk: and we're fucking scared.
[19:56]matociquala: there's this underlying idea of the implacability of the universe
[19:56]matociquala: and the smallness of humanity.
[19:56]cpolk: because we were the second-class geeks who took life sciences instead of physics with the hard line geeks.
[19:57]matociquala: heh
[19:57]matociquala: or anth, or psych, or medicine
[19:57]cpolk: we know that there is no guiding caring force. That life is amazing in its tenacity and persistence, but that ultimately, it's completely pitiless
[19:57]matociquala: Yes.
[19:57]matociquala: That's it, I think
[19:57]cpolk: and if you take it too far, if you unbalance it enough, it will crush you.
[19:58]matociquala: this idea of the tenacity of life in a pitiless universe.
[19:58]cpolk: and nobody else seems to fucking GET IT.
[19:58]matociquala: because life is tenacious
[19:58]matociquala: but.
[19:58]matociquala: humanity is disposable.
[19:58]cpolk: we are.
[19:58]matociquala: and you know what?
[19:58]matociquala: It's not a tragedy that the passenger pigeon perished.
[19:58]cpolk: there's a metaphor in spin - the outstretched arms metaphor?
[19:58]matociquala: And it won't be a tragedy when we go either
[19:59]matociquala: yeah.
[19:59]cpolk: yes, exactly.
[19:59]matociquala: I was on a panel with Lyda Morehouse
[19:59]matociquala: the SF Disaster Novel
[19:59]cpolk: we're the white stuff you trim off your fingernails.
[19:59]cpolk: we care if we perish.
[19:59]cpolk: life does not. It'll just keep being tenacious.
[19:59]matociquala: And at one point I was talking about the coolness of something incredibly destructive.
[19:59]cpolk: mmm.
[20:00]matociquala: And Lyda looked at me and said "This woman is not on our side."
[20:00]cpolk: LOL
[20:00]cpolk: but that's the thing.
[20:00]cpolk: we are.
[20:00]cpolk: we'd like to see humanity live.
[20:00]matociquala: It got a huge laugh--
[20:00]matociquala: And of course I am.
[20:00]matociquala: I am totally invested in humanity.
[20:00]cpolk: it wouldn't fucking scare us down to the cells if we didn't.
[20:00]matociquala: But I also know that God doesn't care if we persist.
[20:00]matociquala: We're not special.
[20:00]cpolk: we're not essential.
[20:01]matociquala: No, we're not.
[20:01]cpolk: the universe doesn't love us bestest of all.
[20:01]matociquala: But we're special to us.
[20:01]cpolk: yes.
[20:01]cpolk: and so we have to take care of us.
[20:01]cpolk: and that means taking care of where we live
[20:01]matociquala: Which is, oddly enough, something that gives me sympathy to ethnic literature.
[20:01]matociquala: *insert scare quotes above*
[20:01]cpolk: and taking the blinders off because we've Got to Go.
[20:02]cpolk: here's your lunch honey, have a good time on your new planet.
[20:02]cpolk: and don't fuck it up this time, 'kay?
[20:02]matociquala: Because you know, there's this critique that a Black Novel is not Relevant because it's about Blackness, not Humanity
[20:02]matociquala: Which upon I call bullshit.
[20:02]cpolk: yes, bullshit.
[20:02]matociquala: Because a human novel isn't relevant.
[20:02]cpolk: Ain't I a woman?
[20:02]matociquala: Because it's about humanity.
[20:03]cpolk: I'm thinking about my Diaspora book again.
[20:04]cpolk: which is good, because I've been in this state of Wanting to Write for a while
[20:04]cpolk: but nothing's got a fire under it.
[20:04]matociquala: Because it's about humanity.
[20:04]matociquala: six point five billion ugly bags of mostly water on a second-class planet in an arm of a barred spiral galaxy
[20:04]matociquala: Pretending like Hell that we signify.
[20:05]cpolk: and spin mocks that so gently and subtly that I'm not sure if other people caught the implication.
[20:05]matociquala: Yes.
[20:05]cpolk: I think maybe if I hadn't read Bios I might not have seized on it so quickly.
[20:05]matociquala: Yes.
[20:05]matociquala: Bob is all about how small you are.
[20:06]cpolk: because Bios is another brick in that wall.
[20:06]matociquala: Bob sucked down a great big hunk of the fairy cake
[20:06]matociquala: And Peter got some too.
[20:06]cpolk: and came out a poet or mad
[20:06]cpolk: because you're seeing things as they truly are, to mix in an absinthe quote.
[20:06]matociquala: Yes.
[20:07]matociquala: Well, I dunno, there's a pretension there too
[20:07]matociquala: of course I think it's how things truly are.
[20:07]cpolk: fer sure.
[20:07]matociquala: It's my reality tunnel.
[20:07]cpolk: and to others we're the nutbars who come out of the desert and proclaim ourselves emperor or the son of god or something equally daft.
[20:08]matociquala: Yeh
[20:08]matociquala: So there you go.
[20:08]matociquala: That's what Spin does that's so cool...
[20:08]cpolk: and it is so cool.
[20:08]matociquala: It takes that understanding and subverts it.
[20:09]matociquala: And you have to read Dawn. *g*
[20:09]cpolk: I'll read Dawn.
[20:09]cpolk: when I was in tramps I found one Octavia Butler book. I bought it.
[20:09]matociquala: Because what Butler does in those books is she gets you agreeing with her when she says that humanity is too broken to save itself.
[20:09]matociquala: And understanding why the aliens have to come save us
[20:09]matociquala: and the humans who want to remain human are wrong.
[20:10]cpolk: because they're children.
[20:10]matociquala: And then you put the book down and go no wait wow.
[20:10]cpolk: monkey children, at that.
[20:10]matociquala: goddamned monkeyboys. *g*
[20:10]matociquala: go blog that, so I can link it....
[20:10]matociquala: Please?
[20:10]cpolk: I will.
[20:11]cpolk: I'll yank this right now and mark it up for posting.
[20:11]matociquala: *works on posting link*
[20:11]matociquala: kk.
matociquala and I start off talking about Spin State, because I just finished reading it and she wanted to talk to me about it, and Spin, because I'd just finished reading it and I wanted to talk about it.Talking about Spin won. But like all good conversations, it wanders, topically, into why we wanna write depressing books about "the world ending" because we're too stupid to clean up after ourselves (otherwise known as what we call eco-gothic.)
it's long and loopy like chat conversations are, but it could prove interesting for the tenacious. we DO go on.
There is a spoiler for Spin state right off the hop. if you want to avoid it, hit the second cut. the spoilers for Hammered, Scardown, worldwired, Carnival, Spin and Dawn: Xenogenesis are unavoidable, and I apologize.
[19:24]
cpolk: what was the twist in Spin State?[19:25]
cpolk: I looked and looked but I didn't figure out what it was.[19:25]
matociquala: the living planet.[19:25]
matociquala: that was supposed to be a surprise[19:26]
cpolk: oh.[19:26]
cpolk: but of course the planet was alive.[19:26]
cpolk: okay.[19:26]
matociquala: heh[19:27]
cpolk: I kept thinking to myself that Chris re-read The Crystal Singer at one point, yelled, "This is rubbish! It wouldn't BE like that! It would be like THIS!"[19:27]
cpolk: and wrote up her worldbuilding with a full head of mad on. An offended sort of 'you wouldn't know a miner's life if it bit you on the ass, you dummy' kind of thing.[19:27]
cpolk: annnd...[19:28]
cpolk: the thing with Cohen pissed me off.[19:28]
matociquala: yeh, prolly[19:28]
matociquala: oh, the resurrection?[19:28]
matociquala: I can't... well, have you read Carnival yet?[19:28]
cpolk: at first I was mad because it was "oh sure, she finally decides to give love an chance and then you kill him"[19:29]
cpolk: (I don't think you ever gave me the finished product. I got to what I figure was more than two thirds but less than three quarters of the way.)[19:30]
matociquala: Then I will not continue the comment.[19:30]
matociquala: want the novel?[19:30]
cpolk: and then she brings him back to life with no more than a "sorry I'm late, luv, I'm here to take your bigass legal battle over my will away because I'm not dead."[19:30]
cpolk: yes give it.[19:31]
matociquala: SFF is fucking desperate.[19:32]
matociquala: Okay, in 2005 we got, oh, two amazing books.[19:32]
cpolk: and I like Richard better than Cohen.[19:32]
matociquala: Richard is a step out from existing AIs.[19:32]
cpolk: that's also true.[19:32]
matociquala: with the threaded personality gimmick.[19:32]
matociquala: We got Accelerando and we got Spin.[19:33]
cpolk: I did like the highly experimental interface thingy in spin state.[19:33]
matociquala: In 2006 we're getting Blindsight.[19:33]
cpolk: ah, Blindsight.[19:33]
cpolk: I wanna read that too.[19:33]
matociquala: And I hear tell Vernor's new book is a work of fucking genius.[19:33]
cpolk: sorry, intraface.[19:33]
cpolk: ooo[19:33]
matociquala: Yeah, intraface.[19:34]
cpolk: but I think that in my hands, I would use it as one of those small details of worldbuilding.[19:34]
matociquala: At least, Ken MacLeod, Charlie Stross, and the rest of the geek boys are all atwitter over Rainbow's End[19:34]
matociquala: Well, that's what I did with the same idea.[19:35]
matociquala: I dunno. I am getting a lot of retractions after Worldwired, by the way[19:35]
cpolk: that many independent AIs have an Avatar - somebody that they can connect with [19:35]
matociquala: People who thought Scardown didn't work are taking it back.[19:35]
cpolk: retractions?[19:35]
matociquala: *g*[19:35]
cpolk: you mean, "I thought this was bunk but now I've read Worldwired and I take it back, I am so lame"?[19:35]
matociquala: s'funny, because I think Scardown is the best of the lot.[19:36]
cpolk: Scardown made me cry[19:36]
cpolk: on a bench by a bus stop[19:36]
cpolk: in public.[19:36]
cpolk: so there![19:36]
matociquala: Hee[19:36]
matociquala: I think boys find it disconcerting.[19:37]
matociquala: Because the deep message of Scardown is:[19:37]
matociquala: "You lost. Suck it up."[19:37]
cpolk: huh.[19:37]
matociquala: "Get up and feed the baby, you fucking sissy."[19:37]
matociquala: "It doesn't matter that you have the flu and you feel like death."[19:37]
matociquala: "The kid has to be fed."[19:38]
cpolk: there's still shit to do now go do it. Don't Wallow. It's un-sexy.[19:38]
matociquala: It's a girl book.[19:38]
cpolk: and I had a stray distressing thought, after reading spin.[19:38]
matociquala: Women suck it up.[19:38]
matociquala: Women slop the fucking pigs.[19:38]
matociquala: Because the pigs need slopping.[19:38]
cpolk: and they're getting the idea that girls are tougher than guys because[19:38]
cpolk: they go on.[19:38]
matociquala: Men lick their wounds.[19:38]
matociquala: Yes.[19:38]
cpolk: guys crack up and have drinking problems and run off to Tahiti.[19:38]
matociquala: What was the thought?[19:39]
cpolk: women bake casseroles and get on with it.[19:39]
cpolk: the thought was this: there's another message going on here.[19:39]
matociquala: we pick ourselves up and get it done.[19:39]
matociquala: Yes![19:39]
matociquala: hat was exactly what I got.[19:39]
matociquala: Spin is a giant diversion.[19:39]
cpolk: the spin was disturbing and mysterious, right?[19:40]
matociquala: A giant, gorgeous, elaborate diversion from the real book.[19:40]
matociquala: Bob is a fucking genius.[19:40]
cpolk: and my little brain said, "But this is all a big giant alien ex machina stunt to save humankind...[19:40]
matociquala: keep talking[19:40]
matociquala: Hee yes[19:40]
cpolk: because it's gone so fucking far we can't do it on our own."[19:40]
cpolk: we need aliens to save us from this shit.[19:41]
matociquala: Did you catch the scary thing about Spin?[19:41]
matociquala: Yeah, okay[19:41]
cpolk: and that scared me down to my bowels.[19:41]
matociquala: for me, the thing about the book that was gorgeous[19:41]
matociquala: was the fucking gauntlet thrown.[19:41]
cpolk: explain[19:41]
matociquala: Because what happens is Bob sets up this huge DE, right?[19:41]
matociquala: And you go "No, wait, why?"[19:42]
matociquala: "What's their motivation?"[19:42]
cpolk: yes.[19:42]
matociquala: And you have to do one of two things.[19:42]
cpolk: I thought about it and stopped at[19:42]
cpolk: because they're smarter wiser kinder more enlightened than us[19:42]
cpolk: or[19:42]
cpolk: we have something that's useful enough to preserve.[19:42]
matociquala: You either have to go, okay, we're too stupid to save ourselves and we're the dodos they're saving from extinction[19:42]
matociquala: or.[19:43]
matociquala: You have to stop and go, [19:43]
matociquala: oh.[19:43]
matociquala: Right.[19:43]
matociquala: Nobody is coming for me.[19:43]
cpolk: yes.[19:43]
cpolk: that's why it scared me so bad.[19:43]
cpolk: because nobody is coming for us.[19:43]
matociquala: it's get out of this ourselves, or extinction in the eye.[19:43]
matociquala: Yes.[19:43]
cpolk: we're not going to get a spin membrane.[19:43]
matociquala: Because he sets up this whole gorgeous in loco parentis.[19:43]
cpolk: aliens are not going to save us from this shit.[19:44]
cpolk: because what they do?[19:44]
matociquala: And of course the subtext is you're not man enough to do it yourself[19:44]
matociquala: You need somebody to wipe your ass, monkeyboy?[19:44]
cpolk: you remember I said, "Why terraform mars? That's not what I'd call a good solution."[19:44]
cpolk: and then they Spun that too[19:44]
matociquala: Or CAN YOU LEARN?[19:44]
matociquala: Yes.[19:45]
matociquala: It's a brilliant book.[19:45]
cpolk: because they (we) were too fucking stupid to figure it out.[19:45]
matociquala: Yes.[19:45]
cpolk: running to Mars isn't good enough.[19:45]
cpolk: it's not about short term solutions for high profit.[19:45]
matociquala: And it's all echoed in the protag's mom's relationships[19:45]
cpolk: you've got nothing to lose but the destruction of the species, you greedy fucks.[19:45]
matociquala: and in the protag's hopeless love affair[19:46]
cpolk: go. DO something real.[19:46]
matociquala: and I mean it just resonates through the whole damned book.[19:46]
matociquala: Fix it yourself, monkeyboy.[19:46]
matociquala: Running away won't solve anything.[19:46]
cpolk: it's definitely a book to re-read.[19:46]
cpolk: no one is coming to help you.[19:46]
cpolk: *laughs*[19:46]
matociquala: You are on your own.[19:46]
cpolk: the Rapture ain't coming.[19:47]
cpolk: fuck. I was smart when I came up with that, wasn't I?[19:47]
matociquala: Contrast, say, Butler's Dawn.[19:47]
matociquala: Yes[19:47]
matociquala: Where the aliens come to save us[19:47] cpolk: and it's creepy as fuck?[19:47]
cpolk: I haven't read Dawn.[19:47]
matociquala: and they do it by picking a few specimens to breed, and genetic engineering them until they aren't human any more.[19:47]
cpolk: but I read Sheri S. Tepper's The Fresco[19:47]
cpolk: and I was deeply disturbed by it.[19:47]
matociquala: Or, yanno, at the risk of talking about me--[19:48]
cpolk: heh.[19:48]
matociquala: My Carnival, where the ecofreaks save the world.[19:48]
matociquala: By killing everybody.[19:48]
matociquala: You should read the Xenogenesis books.[19:48]
matociquala: They pull off that same trick that Spin does.[19:49]
cpolk: I like it.[19:49]
cpolk: and you know what?[19:49]
matociquala: The one where the postulate of the books is chilling.[19:49]
matociquala: And you go, no no no[19:49]
cpolk: I just figured out why I yawn at Singularity.[19:49]
matociquala: and then you can't justify your denial.[19:49]
matociquala: denial, even[19:49]
matociquala: oh?[19:49]
cpolk: it's a big running away. [19:49]
cpolk: it's another rapture.[19:49]
cpolk: but the rapture ain't fucking coming.[19:49]
matociquala: yes.[19:50]
matociquala: Nobody is coming for you.[19:50]
cpolk: and I can't read it because there isn't a solution there.[19:50]
matociquala: nobody is coming for you.[19:50]
matociquala: he I can't type tonight[19:50]
cpolk: it's fantasizing. It's masturbation.[19:50]
matociquala: yeah, it's Diaspora all over again.[19:50]
matociquala: which is what Spin does.[19:50]
cpolk: and once you're done, that's another fifteen minutes of your life not spent on getting yourself out of this mess.[19:50]
matociquala: It takes that whole Diaspora as escape thing and twists it around like the wyrm ourbourous[19:51]
matociquala: It's not a solution.[19:51]
matociquala: It doesn't change a fucking thing.[19:51]
cpolk: I noticed that spin state had a Diaspora. It was kindly mentioned in an offhand fashion.[19:51]
matociquala: It doesn't change what's wrong with the apes.[19:51]
cpolk: (is this why we're a movement?)[19:52]
matociquala: You can't run from your DNA[19:52]
matociquala: the eco-gothics? *g*[19:52]
matociquala: I think so.[19:52]
cpolk: yes.[19:52]
matociquala: I think Bob Wilson may be the founding father of the trend.[19:52]
matociquala: Although The Word for World is Forest is probably the ur-text.[19:52]
cpolk: and I camp myself firmly with the eco-gothics, because that's where my SFNal ideas lie.[19:52]
matociquala: I mean, I was joking when I coined the term. But there's something there.[19:53]
cpolk: yes.[19:53]
matociquala: I think you should blog this convo.[19:53]
matociquala: So I can link it. *g*[19:53]
cpolk: and it will probably become common usage.[19:53]
matociquala: But please fix my spelling....[19:53]
cpolk: heh, yeah, it's a notion.[19:53]
cpolk: I will fix![19:53]
matociquala: I dunno, there's been no assimilation of it so far.[19:53]
matociquala: but it's useful to me.[19:54]
matociquala: I mean, what is eco-gothic?[19:54]
matociquala: John Brunner is.[19:54]
matociquala: And Bob Wilson is.[19:54]
matociquala: And I think Peter is, and I am, and you are....[19:54]
matociquala: What do we have in common, though?[19:56]
cpolk: that we look around at the world[19:56]
cpolk: and we're fucking scared.[19:56]
matociquala: there's this underlying idea of the implacability of the universe[19:56]
matociquala: and the smallness of humanity.[19:56]
cpolk: because we were the second-class geeks who took life sciences instead of physics with the hard line geeks.[19:57]
matociquala: heh[19:57]
matociquala: or anth, or psych, or medicine[19:57]
cpolk: we know that there is no guiding caring force. That life is amazing in its tenacity and persistence, but that ultimately, it's completely pitiless[19:57]
matociquala: Yes.[19:57]
matociquala: That's it, I think[19:57]
cpolk: and if you take it too far, if you unbalance it enough, it will crush you.[19:58]
matociquala: this idea of the tenacity of life in a pitiless universe.[19:58]
cpolk: and nobody else seems to fucking GET IT.[19:58]
matociquala: because life is tenacious[19:58]
matociquala: but.[19:58]
matociquala: humanity is disposable.[19:58]
cpolk: we are.[19:58]
matociquala: and you know what?[19:58]
matociquala: It's not a tragedy that the passenger pigeon perished.[19:58]
cpolk: there's a metaphor in spin - the outstretched arms metaphor?[19:58]
matociquala: And it won't be a tragedy when we go either[19:59]
matociquala: yeah.[19:59]
cpolk: yes, exactly.[19:59]
matociquala: I was on a panel with Lyda Morehouse[19:59]
matociquala: the SF Disaster Novel[19:59]
cpolk: we're the white stuff you trim off your fingernails.[19:59]
cpolk: we care if we perish.[19:59]
cpolk: life does not. It'll just keep being tenacious.[19:59]
matociquala: And at one point I was talking about the coolness of something incredibly destructive.[19:59]
cpolk: mmm.[20:00]
matociquala: And Lyda looked at me and said "This woman is not on our side."[20:00]
cpolk: LOL[20:00]
cpolk: but that's the thing.[20:00]
cpolk: we are.[20:00]
cpolk: we'd like to see humanity live.[20:00]
matociquala: It got a huge laugh--[20:00]
matociquala: And of course I am.[20:00]
matociquala: I am totally invested in humanity.[20:00]
cpolk: it wouldn't fucking scare us down to the cells if we didn't.[20:00]
matociquala: But I also know that God doesn't care if we persist.[20:00]
matociquala: We're not special.[20:00]
cpolk: we're not essential.[20:01]
matociquala: No, we're not.[20:01]
cpolk: the universe doesn't love us bestest of all.[20:01]
matociquala: But we're special to us.[20:01]
cpolk: yes.[20:01]
cpolk: and so we have to take care of us.[20:01]
cpolk: and that means taking care of where we live[20:01]
matociquala: Which is, oddly enough, something that gives me sympathy to ethnic literature.[20:01]
matociquala: *insert scare quotes above*[20:01]
cpolk: and taking the blinders off because we've Got to Go.[20:02]
cpolk: here's your lunch honey, have a good time on your new planet.[20:02]
cpolk: and don't fuck it up this time, 'kay?[20:02]
matociquala: Because you know, there's this critique that a Black Novel is not Relevant because it's about Blackness, not Humanity[20:02]
matociquala: Which upon I call bullshit.[20:02]
cpolk: yes, bullshit.[20:02]
matociquala: Because a human novel isn't relevant.[20:02]
cpolk: Ain't I a woman?[20:02]
matociquala: Because it's about humanity.[20:03]
cpolk: I'm thinking about my Diaspora book again.[20:04]
cpolk: which is good, because I've been in this state of Wanting to Write for a while[20:04]
cpolk: but nothing's got a fire under it.[20:04]
matociquala: Because it's about humanity.[20:04]
matociquala: six point five billion ugly bags of mostly water on a second-class planet in an arm of a barred spiral galaxy[20:04]
matociquala: Pretending like Hell that we signify.[20:05]
cpolk: and spin mocks that so gently and subtly that I'm not sure if other people caught the implication.[20:05]
matociquala: Yes.[20:05]
cpolk: I think maybe if I hadn't read Bios I might not have seized on it so quickly.[20:05]
matociquala: Yes.[20:05]
matociquala: Bob is all about how small you are.[20:06]
cpolk: because Bios is another brick in that wall.[20:06]
matociquala: Bob sucked down a great big hunk of the fairy cake[20:06]
matociquala: And Peter got some too.[20:06]
cpolk: and came out a poet or mad[20:06]
cpolk: because you're seeing things as they truly are, to mix in an absinthe quote.[20:06]
matociquala: Yes.[20:07]
matociquala: Well, I dunno, there's a pretension there too[20:07]
matociquala: of course I think it's how things truly are.[20:07]
cpolk: fer sure.[20:07]
matociquala: It's my reality tunnel.[20:07]
cpolk: and to others we're the nutbars who come out of the desert and proclaim ourselves emperor or the son of god or something equally daft.[20:08]
matociquala: Yeh[20:08]
matociquala: So there you go.[20:08]
matociquala: That's what Spin does that's so cool...[20:08]
cpolk: and it is so cool.[20:08]
matociquala: It takes that understanding and subverts it.[20:09]
matociquala: And you have to read Dawn. *g*[20:09]
cpolk: I'll read Dawn.[20:09]
cpolk: when I was in tramps I found one Octavia Butler book. I bought it.[20:09]
matociquala: Because what Butler does in those books is she gets you agreeing with her when she says that humanity is too broken to save itself.[20:09]
matociquala: And understanding why the aliens have to come save us[20:09]
matociquala: and the humans who want to remain human are wrong.[20:10]
cpolk: because they're children.[20:10]
matociquala: And then you put the book down and go no wait wow.[20:10]
cpolk: monkey children, at that.[20:10]
matociquala: goddamned monkeyboys. *g*[20:10]
matociquala: go blog that, so I can link it....[20:10]
matociquala: Please?[20:10]
cpolk: I will.[20:11]
cpolk: I'll yank this right now and mark it up for posting.[20:11]
matociquala: *works on posting link*[20:11]
matociquala: kk.